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	<title>Comments on: I wish I could bet Roger Kimball</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/</link>
	<description>taking the most charitable view of those who disagree</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2020 16:49:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: John P Palmer</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496846</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John P Palmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;d have won big. Nearly 2oK cases as of now (Friday evening).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;d have won big. Nearly 2oK cases as of now (Friday evening).</p>
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		<title>By: RAD</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RAD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2020 09:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BC, I think I’ve tried to answer your question directly. Markets, and other emergent systems, work based on tight feedback loops. We have to also design systems with rare or non-linear (different variables that dominate in different phases) signals. If you are designing a city&#039;s sewer system you need a 100-year storm value which is based on empirical data, including the timeframe based on the systems involved.

The health system is more of a non-linear system with many different variables that are dominant in many difficult scenarios.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BC, I think I’ve tried to answer your question directly. Markets, and other emergent systems, work based on tight feedback loops. We have to also design systems with rare or non-linear (different variables that dominate in different phases) signals. If you are designing a city&#8217;s sewer system you need a 100-year storm value which is based on empirical data, including the timeframe based on the systems involved.</p>
<p>The health system is more of a non-linear system with many different variables that are dominant in many difficult scenarios.</p>
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		<title>By: BC</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496330</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2020 02:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Market prices incorporate empirical (and all other types) of data and provide for not only feedback loops but also predictions about future surpluses and shortages.  My question is whether there is something about hospital capacity that doesn&#039;t allow information about it to be communicated through market prices.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Market prices incorporate empirical (and all other types) of data and provide for not only feedback loops but also predictions about future surpluses and shortages.  My question is whether there is something about hospital capacity that doesn&#8217;t allow information about it to be communicated through market prices.</p>
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		<title>By: Ernie</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you haven&#039;t read this:
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca
You should do so.
Pueyo makes it clear in Chart 7 that a definite lag exists between the measured (confirmed) cases and the true number of cases.  The lag approximates the incubation period.  What this means is that the number of new cases keeps growing fast after the imposition of quarantines or self isolation. 
I&#039;m guessing that after a week or so of &quot;self isolation&quot; and shutdowns in the US, people will still see large numbers of new cases and begin to believe that the activities to curtail the growth aren&#039;t working.  The ability to sustain these policies will weaken and/or disappear and we&#039;ll really be in trouble.
One counter to this is event is continual reminders to the public that the measures will work but we will not see the effects for some time and plea for patience.  I don&#039;t hear any of those reminders now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you haven&#8217;t read this:<br />
<a href="https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca" rel="nofollow">https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca</a><br />
You should do so.<br />
Pueyo makes it clear in Chart 7 that a definite lag exists between the measured (confirmed) cases and the true number of cases.  The lag approximates the incubation period.  What this means is that the number of new cases keeps growing fast after the imposition of quarantines or self isolation.<br />
I&#8217;m guessing that after a week or so of &#8220;self isolation&#8221; and shutdowns in the US, people will still see large numbers of new cases and begin to believe that the activities to curtail the growth aren&#8217;t working.  The ability to sustain these policies will weaken and/or disappear and we&#8217;ll really be in trouble.<br />
One counter to this is event is continual reminders to the public that the measures will work but we will not see the effects for some time and plea for patience.  I don&#8217;t hear any of those reminders now.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496276</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Sweeny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is a great gimmick for someone trying to break into the business.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a great gimmick for someone trying to break into the business.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy, Alabama</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496262</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy, Alabama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like Roger Kimball, but I believe he is wrong on this.

It is difficult to find the correct response to an exponential or potentially-exponential event. If you go draconian before the &quot;knee&quot; in the curve, it looks like overreaction to a nothing-burger. If you hit after knee, you could easily get 10x or 100x the fatalities you might otherwise have gotten. Add in the long asymptomatic infectious period, and you are working with badly out of date data.

In terms of govt response, facilitating drive-through testing, closing borders, encouraging social distancing, seems correct at this point in the curve. martial law with jail time (like Italy) does not seem correct, perhaps ever for this country. I am very impressed with the response from sports leagues, which made it inevitable that schools, libraries and other public facilities would close.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Roger Kimball, but I believe he is wrong on this.</p>
<p>It is difficult to find the correct response to an exponential or potentially-exponential event. If you go draconian before the &#8220;knee&#8221; in the curve, it looks like overreaction to a nothing-burger. If you hit after knee, you could easily get 10x or 100x the fatalities you might otherwise have gotten. Add in the long asymptomatic infectious period, and you are working with badly out of date data.</p>
<p>In terms of govt response, facilitating drive-through testing, closing borders, encouraging social distancing, seems correct at this point in the curve. martial law with jail time (like Italy) does not seem correct, perhaps ever for this country. I am very impressed with the response from sports leagues, which made it inevitable that schools, libraries and other public facilities would close.</p>
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		<title>By: RAD</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496248</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RAD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496248</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, except my mechanistic-mind reels when confronted with the fact that the vast majority of very smart people, like the community built around this site, fully understand exponential curves but can&#039;t seem to recognize systems that are clearly not behaving exponentially.

It was reasonable to make 40-70% infected population estimates before we understood the details of this specific disease and how our societies would behave during an epidemic but the learning phase is over. The data is imperfect but it&#039;s good enough, in the engineering sense, to decide a strategy and a set of tactics given our current resources. 

Our social systems collapse long before the infected population reaches an immunity level that has any impact on limiting further outbreaks. The bell curve is very shallow, relative to the total poulation, when it exceeds health system capacity and forces the economy into total lock down.

We will be facing a never ending series of shallow sinusoidal bell curves until we learn to focus on the newly ill and calmly backtrace their previous contacts with an emphasis on the time since first symptoms appeared or 5-14 days if you treat every infected person like a Byzantine General.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, except my mechanistic-mind reels when confronted with the fact that the vast majority of very smart people, like the community built around this site, fully understand exponential curves but can&#8217;t seem to recognize systems that are clearly not behaving exponentially.</p>
<p>It was reasonable to make 40-70% infected population estimates before we understood the details of this specific disease and how our societies would behave during an epidemic but the learning phase is over. The data is imperfect but it&#8217;s good enough, in the engineering sense, to decide a strategy and a set of tactics given our current resources. </p>
<p>Our social systems collapse long before the infected population reaches an immunity level that has any impact on limiting further outbreaks. The bell curve is very shallow, relative to the total poulation, when it exceeds health system capacity and forces the economy into total lock down.</p>
<p>We will be facing a never ending series of shallow sinusoidal bell curves until we learn to focus on the newly ill and calmly backtrace their previous contacts with an emphasis on the time since first symptoms appeared or 5-14 days if you treat every infected person like a Byzantine General.</p>
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		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One would have thought social media experience for chattering class types would have thoroughly trained everybody by now in viral dynamics and the exponential growth curve that occurs when something gets contagious and passes from person to person.

Also, all those pandemic and zombie horror movies have done a lot of unrecognized pubic education.

I am more concerned that a large majority of people have stumbling block psychological trouble thinking in terms of the prudence and desirability of active measures that, while they are certain to cause a lot of gross harm, are the lesser evil and reduce net harm, and yield a superior outcome to the passive harm counterfactual.

This is also something I would have thought Hollywood would have educated the public about, excruciating hard-call &quot;least worst option&quot; decisions of this nature being the running theme of shows like &quot;24&quot;, but apparently not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One would have thought social media experience for chattering class types would have thoroughly trained everybody by now in viral dynamics and the exponential growth curve that occurs when something gets contagious and passes from person to person.</p>
<p>Also, all those pandemic and zombie horror movies have done a lot of unrecognized pubic education.</p>
<p>I am more concerned that a large majority of people have stumbling block psychological trouble thinking in terms of the prudence and desirability of active measures that, while they are certain to cause a lot of gross harm, are the lesser evil and reduce net harm, and yield a superior outcome to the passive harm counterfactual.</p>
<p>This is also something I would have thought Hollywood would have educated the public about, excruciating hard-call &#8220;least worst option&#8221; decisions of this nature being the running theme of shows like &#8220;24&#8221;, but apparently not.</p>
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		<title>By: RAD</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496236</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RAD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Tragedy of the Commons, shortages, and hoarding are all solved by property rights and flexible prices. Is hospital capacity an exception?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, hospital capacity is an exception as are seatbelt laws and speed limits. These are cases where we have to rely on empirical data to make optimal decisions in the aggregate. I think what is common in these cases is a lack of a feedback loop that matches our natural institutional memory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Tragedy of the Commons, shortages, and hoarding are all solved by property rights and flexible prices. Is hospital capacity an exception?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, hospital capacity is an exception as are seatbelt laws and speed limits. These are cases where we have to rely on empirical data to make optimal decisions in the aggregate. I think what is common in these cases is a lack of a feedback loop that matches our natural institutional memory.</p>
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		<title>By: BC</title>
		<link>https://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/i-wish-i-could-bet-roger-kimball/#comment-496234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=12842#comment-496234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nassim Taleb&#039;s essay seems to imply that social distancing is individually irrational, especially at the early stages of an outbreak.  I&#039;m not quite sure that&#039;s true, especially if one includes concern about infecting one&#039;s elderly loved ones (as opposed to unknown strangers) as an individual, private interest.  Also, one might consider that the private consequences to individuals (or their elderly loved ones) getting sick is higher if there is the potential that, when they do get sick, the health care system might be overloaded.  That&#039;s a little different than the collective interest in not overloading the health system to begin with.  Taleb of all people should understand that individuals have a private interest in managing black swan tail risks.

Related, on the collective interest of not overloading the health system, although many have pointed out such interest, I have yet to read anyone explain how such interest has arisen.  There are very few, if any, other goods/services where we have somehow developed a collective interest in preventing demand spikes.  Why?  Is it because there is no market for reserving hospital/ICU/ventillator capacity in the event of an outbreak?  Such a market, if it existed, would seem to allow us to rely on individual interest to get people to socially distance rather than on exhortations to consider collective interests.  Tragedy of the Commons, shortages, and hoarding are all solved by property rights and flexible prices.  Is hospital capacity an exception?   Also, has regulatory capture in some way prevented emergence of health care innovations to allow for more flexible capacity to meet demand spikes?  These are questions about how our healthcare system should evolve in the long term.  In the present crisis, we have to deal with the healthcare system that we actually have.  Somehow, though, I don&#039;t get the sense that this pandemic --- and the heavily regulated healthcare system&#039;s inability to deal with it without resorting to calls for collective action --- is priming us to consider market-based reforms in the future.  That would be truly immoral and unethical.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nassim Taleb&#8217;s essay seems to imply that social distancing is individually irrational, especially at the early stages of an outbreak.  I&#8217;m not quite sure that&#8217;s true, especially if one includes concern about infecting one&#8217;s elderly loved ones (as opposed to unknown strangers) as an individual, private interest.  Also, one might consider that the private consequences to individuals (or their elderly loved ones) getting sick is higher if there is the potential that, when they do get sick, the health care system might be overloaded.  That&#8217;s a little different than the collective interest in not overloading the health system to begin with.  Taleb of all people should understand that individuals have a private interest in managing black swan tail risks.</p>
<p>Related, on the collective interest of not overloading the health system, although many have pointed out such interest, I have yet to read anyone explain how such interest has arisen.  There are very few, if any, other goods/services where we have somehow developed a collective interest in preventing demand spikes.  Why?  Is it because there is no market for reserving hospital/ICU/ventillator capacity in the event of an outbreak?  Such a market, if it existed, would seem to allow us to rely on individual interest to get people to socially distance rather than on exhortations to consider collective interests.  Tragedy of the Commons, shortages, and hoarding are all solved by property rights and flexible prices.  Is hospital capacity an exception?   Also, has regulatory capture in some way prevented emergence of health care innovations to allow for more flexible capacity to meet demand spikes?  These are questions about how our healthcare system should evolve in the long term.  In the present crisis, we have to deal with the healthcare system that we actually have.  Somehow, though, I don&#8217;t get the sense that this pandemic &#8212; and the heavily regulated healthcare system&#8217;s inability to deal with it without resorting to calls for collective action &#8212; is priming us to consider market-based reforms in the future.  That would be truly immoral and unethical.</p>
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