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	<title>Comments on: Too much discipline on the left, too little on the right</title>
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	<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/</link>
	<description>taking the most charitable view of those who disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Lord</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lord]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2017 21:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quite wrong.  It isn&#039;t they agree on policy, but they agree on what isn&#039;t appropriate policy.  Even now many are satisfied with adjustments to the ACA while others want single payer.  These differences are out in the open, in contrast to the lockstep opposition to it which concealed there wasn&#039;t any real consensus underlying it.  It is easy to be against something, much more difficult to be for something.  I was constantly reminded of all these Republican plans for what not at the time that have proven imaginary because there was never any buy in.  They were just window dressing to answer they had a plan.  Now if they really wanted a plan that would survive this congress, they would not be asking for Democratic support, they would be insisting on it.  That this is beyond any possible conception for them is a sign they aren&#039;t leadership material.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite wrong.  It isn&#8217;t they agree on policy, but they agree on what isn&#8217;t appropriate policy.  Even now many are satisfied with adjustments to the ACA while others want single payer.  These differences are out in the open, in contrast to the lockstep opposition to it which concealed there wasn&#8217;t any real consensus underlying it.  It is easy to be against something, much more difficult to be for something.  I was constantly reminded of all these Republican plans for what not at the time that have proven imaginary because there was never any buy in.  They were just window dressing to answer they had a plan.  Now if they really wanted a plan that would survive this congress, they would not be asking for Democratic support, they would be insisting on it.  That this is beyond any possible conception for them is a sign they aren&#8217;t leadership material.</p>
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		<title>By: Weir</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Weir]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2017 07:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They can devote their lives to getting ahead, sucking up to the boss, doing and saying everything right, with perfect restraint and decency, but in their minds they&#039;re rebellious spirits, part of the resistance.

They see themselves as just as free and feckless as anyone from that underclass they&#039;ll never have to meet. That&#039;s how neatly they&#039;ve arranged their lives, their careers, their families, their investments, and their estates.

They just don&#039;t, as Charles Murray says, preach what they practice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They can devote their lives to getting ahead, sucking up to the boss, doing and saying everything right, with perfect restraint and decency, but in their minds they&#8217;re rebellious spirits, part of the resistance.</p>
<p>They see themselves as just as free and feckless as anyone from that underclass they&#8217;ll never have to meet. That&#8217;s how neatly they&#8217;ve arranged their lives, their careers, their families, their investments, and their estates.</p>
<p>They just don&#8217;t, as Charles Murray says, preach what they practice.</p>
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		<title>By: lliamander</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lliamander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2017 03:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doh! Just realized you were responding to Handle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doh! Just realized you were responding to Handle.</p>
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		<title>By: lliamander</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lliamander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 23:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; I didn’t read your whole novel...

No worries :).

TLDR - The Big Five Personality Index, even when administered as a self-report survey, is actually fairly predictive of a lot of objectively observable behavior.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; I didn’t read your whole novel&#8230;</p>
<p>No worries :).</p>
<p>TLDR &#8211; The Big Five Personality Index, even when administered as a self-report survey, is actually fairly predictive of a lot of objectively observable behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Octavian</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Octavian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is demonstrably false. Congressional Democrats vote and think in lockstep while Republicans struggle to cohere around even lowering taxes, the Center piece of their ideology. There are no free market leftists, old Liberals, or even hardly any blue dog Democrats any more. There’s almost no variation or serious disagreement left on the left at the high levels. Slight deviation is treated as heresy. Just ask the Christakises or Larry Summers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is demonstrably false. Congressional Democrats vote and think in lockstep while Republicans struggle to cohere around even lowering taxes, the Center piece of their ideology. There are no free market leftists, old Liberals, or even hardly any blue dog Democrats any more. There’s almost no variation or serious disagreement left on the left at the high levels. Slight deviation is treated as heresy. Just ask the Christakises or Larry Summers.</p>
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		<title>By: Octavian</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476710</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Octavian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn’t read your whole novel, but I think your seconds last paragraph is quite right. I know of closed minded progressives who purport to be open to anything and may even be able to convince a personality test of that; as well as conservatives who’s ideas on things like sexuality would lead them to be considered bigots, but who are perfectly able to countenance extremely opposing views or behaviors with equanimity. 

I’ve always thought personality tests don’t so much tell us about one’s personality as how one wants others to view one’s personality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn’t read your whole novel, but I think your seconds last paragraph is quite right. I know of closed minded progressives who purport to be open to anything and may even be able to convince a personality test of that; as well as conservatives who’s ideas on things like sexuality would lead them to be considered bigots, but who are perfectly able to countenance extremely opposing views or behaviors with equanimity. </p>
<p>I’ve always thought personality tests don’t so much tell us about one’s personality as how one wants others to view one’s personality.</p>
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		<title>By: Octavian</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Octavian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If we accept that we will never be evaluated as individuals then why is equality even desirable? Groups aren’t equal, not in their abilities or accomplishments or usefulness to other groups. Nor are individuals, of course. The only meaningful notion of political equality is rooted in the notion of moral and legal equality of individuals. If that’s just a pipe dream, I don’t see why it really is ‘the next best thing’ to treat all groups equally.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we accept that we will never be evaluated as individuals then why is equality even desirable? Groups aren’t equal, not in their abilities or accomplishments or usefulness to other groups. Nor are individuals, of course. The only meaningful notion of political equality is rooted in the notion of moral and legal equality of individuals. If that’s just a pipe dream, I don’t see why it really is ‘the next best thing’ to treat all groups equally.</p>
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		<title>By: lliamander</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lliamander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; All of this is to say is that the politics-personality correlation types have not done an adequate job of demonstrating that a so-called “personality test” is not in fact, at least in part, also a “proxy political ideology” test.

Most personality tests rest on self-report.  Analysis based on self-report in general is subject to the weaknesses you describe.  The question is whether this has adequately been accounted for in the Big 5 personality tests.

We can start by asking ourselves whether people would have an incentive to self-report dishonestly or inaccurately.  We would certainly expect this to be the case with self-reports of, say, IQ, because of the positive associations with high IQ.  With personality traits it&#039;s not so clear because each trait can be described using both positive and negative adjectives.

(It&#039;s worth noting that the Big 5 was developed by simply giving people a randomly sampling of adjectives, asking them how well each adjective described themselves, and then looking at what adjectives clumped together.  The theory was developed afterward as an explanation to this clumping).

You make the sound point that the emotional valence of adjectives can vary depending upon one&#039;s social context, including the political values of one&#039;s community. So the question becomes, do these personality traits correlate with other traits that are not obviously related to political values?  We do know that they correlate with media genre preferences[1], which is at least not obviously politically motivated.

But, as you rightly point out, the real question is whether self-reports of these personality traits are also consistent with objectively observable behavior, as that isn&#039;t so easily falsifiable.  While I don&#039;t have studies handy, my understanding is that we do have evidence of such correlations.  For instance, Openness is correlated with creative ability (as found in artists and entrepreneurs).  Conscientiousness is correlated with behaviors like keeping a schedule, keeping a clean living space, and success in highly structured, rules-oriented environments.

Now, there is the meta-question about how reliable these results are.  Given the general state of the social sciences at present, a good deal of skepticism is warranted.  On this I will say two things.  The first is that the current social science establishments tend to be less critical of results that conform to the politically correct/social-constructionist consensus, whereas many of the results from personality research are decidedly not politically correct.  The second is that those who have done the most to criticize the lack of statistical rigor in the social sciences have also tended to stand by the results of psychometric research (IQ and the Big 5).

The million-dollar question though, is this: how do we explain the authoritarian behavior we have seen from the supposedly &quot;open-minded&quot; Left?  That question deserves a whole other essay, but for now I would just like to observe that at least in our present circumstance this is in part due to an ongoing political re-alignment.

[1] http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/10/media-genre-more-basic-than-politics-or-personality.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; All of this is to say is that the politics-personality correlation types have not done an adequate job of demonstrating that a so-called “personality test” is not in fact, at least in part, also a “proxy political ideology” test.</p>
<p>Most personality tests rest on self-report.  Analysis based on self-report in general is subject to the weaknesses you describe.  The question is whether this has adequately been accounted for in the Big 5 personality tests.</p>
<p>We can start by asking ourselves whether people would have an incentive to self-report dishonestly or inaccurately.  We would certainly expect this to be the case with self-reports of, say, IQ, because of the positive associations with high IQ.  With personality traits it&#8217;s not so clear because each trait can be described using both positive and negative adjectives.</p>
<p>(It&#8217;s worth noting that the Big 5 was developed by simply giving people a randomly sampling of adjectives, asking them how well each adjective described themselves, and then looking at what adjectives clumped together.  The theory was developed afterward as an explanation to this clumping).</p>
<p>You make the sound point that the emotional valence of adjectives can vary depending upon one&#8217;s social context, including the political values of one&#8217;s community. So the question becomes, do these personality traits correlate with other traits that are not obviously related to political values?  We do know that they correlate with media genre preferences[1], which is at least not obviously politically motivated.</p>
<p>But, as you rightly point out, the real question is whether self-reports of these personality traits are also consistent with objectively observable behavior, as that isn&#8217;t so easily falsifiable.  While I don&#8217;t have studies handy, my understanding is that we do have evidence of such correlations.  For instance, Openness is correlated with creative ability (as found in artists and entrepreneurs).  Conscientiousness is correlated with behaviors like keeping a schedule, keeping a clean living space, and success in highly structured, rules-oriented environments.</p>
<p>Now, there is the meta-question about how reliable these results are.  Given the general state of the social sciences at present, a good deal of skepticism is warranted.  On this I will say two things.  The first is that the current social science establishments tend to be less critical of results that conform to the politically correct/social-constructionist consensus, whereas many of the results from personality research are decidedly not politically correct.  The second is that those who have done the most to criticize the lack of statistical rigor in the social sciences have also tended to stand by the results of psychometric research (IQ and the Big 5).</p>
<p>The million-dollar question though, is this: how do we explain the authoritarian behavior we have seen from the supposedly &#8220;open-minded&#8221; Left?  That question deserves a whole other essay, but for now I would just like to observe that at least in our present circumstance this is in part due to an ongoing political re-alignment.</p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/10/media-genre-more-basic-than-politics-or-personality.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/10/media-genre-more-basic-than-politics-or-personality.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Sweeny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I&#039;m a strong supporter of free speech.  But hate speech isns&#039;t free speech.  And I have a loooooong list of things that are hate speech.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m a strong supporter of free speech.  But hate speech isns&#8217;t free speech.  And I have a loooooong list of things that are hate speech.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MikeW</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/too-much-discipline-on-the-left-too-little-on-the-right/#comment-476701</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=9740#comment-476701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen.</p>
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