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	<title>Comments on: Question from a Commenter</title>
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	<description>taking the most charitable view of those who disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Slocum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2016 15:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Why, for example, are many history Ph.D.s driving cabs (now Uber) and not teaching high school? (occupational licensing plus health care costs monotonically increasing with average age of the employee roster, maybe).&quot;

A number of reasons.  

1. Union contracts--school districts generally won&#039;t hire inexperienced teachers with graduate degrees because they have to be paid at the top of the scale.  

2. Teaching skills -- History PhD programs don&#039;t select for or develop good skills in the classroom.  

3. The good-old-girls network.  The way you get a job in high-paying desirable school districts is much like the way it worked in unionized auto plants -- you have an &#039;in&#039; with the administration which often consists of relatives already teaching there.  Or you pay your dues through several years of being on the sub.  Or both.  

4. A  PhD may make you an undesirable colleague.  You&#039;re a risk to make the other teachers look bad by being too smart and working too hard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why, for example, are many history Ph.D.s driving cabs (now Uber) and not teaching high school? (occupational licensing plus health care costs monotonically increasing with average age of the employee roster, maybe).&#8221;</p>
<p>A number of reasons.  </p>
<p>1. Union contracts&#8211;school districts generally won&#8217;t hire inexperienced teachers with graduate degrees because they have to be paid at the top of the scale.  </p>
<p>2. Teaching skills &#8212; History PhD programs don&#8217;t select for or develop good skills in the classroom.  </p>
<p>3. The good-old-girls network.  The way you get a job in high-paying desirable school districts is much like the way it worked in unionized auto plants &#8212; you have an &#8216;in&#8217; with the administration which often consists of relatives already teaching there.  Or you pay your dues through several years of being on the sub.  Or both.  </p>
<p>4. A  PhD may make you an undesirable colleague.  You&#8217;re a risk to make the other teachers look bad by being too smart and working too hard.</p>
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		<title>By: charles w abbott</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466362</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[charles w abbott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2016 13:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466362</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some guy wrote a thin book (maybe a scholarly journal special supplement) about how to be a Department Chair at a university--I can find the title later, maybe, if it matters.  He was in math--the book has a blue cover.  He must have chaired a math department, where he learned that &quot;As department chair you will make one additional enemy in your department every year.&quot;  

He said that in some colleges, sometimes, Deans can help to save a department that is spiraling downward.  That&#039;s one function they sometimes perform.  Deans can veto the 3d rate scholar that the 2d rate scholars want to add to their department.  

He said that the key problem deans could sometimes overcome, in the circumstance, was that &quot;First rate scholars like to hire other first rate scholars.&quot;  The problem was that &quot;second rate scholars like to hire third rate scholars (because emotional insecurity, he implied) and third rate scholars liked to hire fifth rate scholars.&quot;  

A question for Arnold (it seems like he skims these comments in his spare time)  

QUESTION: 

Are there fields where &quot;people hire people smarter than themselves&quot; (smarter, better, faster, tougher, sexier, whatever) and conversely, fields where decision makers are afraid to do so?  

Do we have theories for this?  

Why, for example, are many history Ph.D.s driving cabs (now Uber) and not teaching high school?  (occupational licensing plus health care costs monotonically increasing with average age of the employee roster, maybe).  

Can this have an effect?  Presumably in marketing they hire people because they can increase sales.  But some fields, it seems the organization has no clear objective function where you hire someone who probably is good for the bottom line--because you can&#039;t measure an increase to the bottom line.   There is no bottom line.   

An odd conversation I had with my elderly mother--she pointed that symphony violinists can battle it out for the position of first chair.  If the second chair thinks he/she is better, that person can try to usurp the position.  Is this actually true?  More generally, how many fields are like that, even remotely?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some guy wrote a thin book (maybe a scholarly journal special supplement) about how to be a Department Chair at a university&#8211;I can find the title later, maybe, if it matters.  He was in math&#8211;the book has a blue cover.  He must have chaired a math department, where he learned that &#8220;As department chair you will make one additional enemy in your department every year.&#8221;  </p>
<p>He said that in some colleges, sometimes, Deans can help to save a department that is spiraling downward.  That&#8217;s one function they sometimes perform.  Deans can veto the 3d rate scholar that the 2d rate scholars want to add to their department.  </p>
<p>He said that the key problem deans could sometimes overcome, in the circumstance, was that &#8220;First rate scholars like to hire other first rate scholars.&#8221;  The problem was that &#8220;second rate scholars like to hire third rate scholars (because emotional insecurity, he implied) and third rate scholars liked to hire fifth rate scholars.&#8221;  </p>
<p>A question for Arnold (it seems like he skims these comments in his spare time)  </p>
<p>QUESTION: </p>
<p>Are there fields where &#8220;people hire people smarter than themselves&#8221; (smarter, better, faster, tougher, sexier, whatever) and conversely, fields where decision makers are afraid to do so?  </p>
<p>Do we have theories for this?  </p>
<p>Why, for example, are many history Ph.D.s driving cabs (now Uber) and not teaching high school?  (occupational licensing plus health care costs monotonically increasing with average age of the employee roster, maybe).  </p>
<p>Can this have an effect?  Presumably in marketing they hire people because they can increase sales.  But some fields, it seems the organization has no clear objective function where you hire someone who probably is good for the bottom line&#8211;because you can&#8217;t measure an increase to the bottom line.   There is no bottom line.   </p>
<p>An odd conversation I had with my elderly mother&#8211;she pointed that symphony violinists can battle it out for the position of first chair.  If the second chair thinks he/she is better, that person can try to usurp the position.  Is this actually true?  More generally, how many fields are like that, even remotely?</p>
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		<title>By: j</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[j]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2016 06:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once I worked Avigdor, an Auschwitz survivor. He was the chief economist of the team, although he had no formal education at all (because of the wars). He did not accept my excuse that I can&#039;t finish a report  for tomorrow because of a coming exam:&lt;b&gt; &quot;An exam? I am taking exams every day all my life.&quot; &lt;/b&gt; What I am trying to convey is that people has no faith in its own opinion about your capability or intelligence, they need the stamp of an university or having worked for another company in the same capacity or some other external signal. No one will give you the job and risk being blamed for an obvious mistake if you appear to be failing. Everybody is watching and hunting for something to say &quot;I knew it&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once I worked Avigdor, an Auschwitz survivor. He was the chief economist of the team, although he had no formal education at all (because of the wars). He did not accept my excuse that I can&#8217;t finish a report  for tomorrow because of a coming exam:<b> &#8220;An exam? I am taking exams every day all my life.&#8221; </b> What I am trying to convey is that people has no faith in its own opinion about your capability or intelligence, they need the stamp of an university or having worked for another company in the same capacity or some other external signal. No one will give you the job and risk being blamed for an obvious mistake if you appear to be failing. Everybody is watching and hunting for something to say &#8220;I knew it&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew'</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466360</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew']]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2016 04:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466360</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder if it is some kind of &quot;plausible deniability&quot; for the employer.

Let&#039;s say Steve gets a promotion over Joe. It is easier for the employer to justify this based on a degree Steve has that Joe doesn&#039;t than on experience, even if Steve&#039;s is military experience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if it is some kind of &#8220;plausible deniability&#8221; for the employer.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say Steve gets a promotion over Joe. It is easier for the employer to justify this based on a degree Steve has that Joe doesn&#8217;t than on experience, even if Steve&#8217;s is military experience.</p>
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		<title>By: ivvenalis</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ivvenalis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2016 01:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But the hypothetical ex-military applicant *does* have credentials: a referenced resume and probably some military/government certifications on file.  He just doesn&#039;t have a degree from a college.  

I dealt with this when I was in the service.  Say you had a sergeant with ten years of experience doing something.  Well, obviously that means nothing, what really matters is that he grind out some online classes to get a degree in &quot;military studies&quot; from some &quot;college&quot; no one has ever heard of.  Worse, this was actually required for advancement within the military, and had to be done on the soldier&#039;s own time.  

Same thing for officers.  There were ways to get a &quot;real&quot; graduate degree as a serving officer, but the majority of them do some kind of correspondence course to get a &quot;strategic studies&quot; or &quot;organizational psychology&quot; degree or some nonsense around eight or ten years into their career and, again, this was taken into account for promotion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the hypothetical ex-military applicant *does* have credentials: a referenced resume and probably some military/government certifications on file.  He just doesn&#8217;t have a degree from a college.  </p>
<p>I dealt with this when I was in the service.  Say you had a sergeant with ten years of experience doing something.  Well, obviously that means nothing, what really matters is that he grind out some online classes to get a degree in &#8220;military studies&#8221; from some &#8220;college&#8221; no one has ever heard of.  Worse, this was actually required for advancement within the military, and had to be done on the soldier&#8217;s own time.  </p>
<p>Same thing for officers.  There were ways to get a &#8220;real&#8221; graduate degree as a serving officer, but the majority of them do some kind of correspondence course to get a &#8220;strategic studies&#8221; or &#8220;organizational psychology&#8221; degree or some nonsense around eight or ten years into their career and, again, this was taken into account for promotion.</p>
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		<title>By: JayT</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JayT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the main reason this doesn&#039;t happen is that if a large high profile company were to take in a person and train them up, as soon as that worker showed they were competent the company would have to raise their salary to market rate or else that person would move on. I would wager that the average company would consider a &quot;graduate&quot; of a large company&#039;s training on par with a college graduate, so the wage would not be held down much, if at all.

For a smaller firm, they need to get as much as possible out of each employee, so spending time training someone, even if they are cheap, isn&#039;t going to be a cost they can easily absorb.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the main reason this doesn&#8217;t happen is that if a large high profile company were to take in a person and train them up, as soon as that worker showed they were competent the company would have to raise their salary to market rate or else that person would move on. I would wager that the average company would consider a &#8220;graduate&#8221; of a large company&#8217;s training on par with a college graduate, so the wage would not be held down much, if at all.</p>
<p>For a smaller firm, they need to get as much as possible out of each employee, so spending time training someone, even if they are cheap, isn&#8217;t going to be a cost they can easily absorb.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew'</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466356</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew']]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;making it through engineering in four years at SUNY Buffalo was difficult&quot;

Yeah, it&#039;s no joke. 142 is a number I will never forget. That was the hours required to graduate where I went. That&#039;s ~18 a semester. Almost none of my AP credits transferred, which was a good thing because the one that did, Calculus ended up screwing me because I wasn&#039;t ready for Calculus 2. I ended up having to take 21 hours one semester. It was insane. Half the people quit to be education majors, which is kind of a shame. Maybe they should have a BA in engineering. Who knows how many took the 5 year plan. They have substantially reduced the required hours because it was just ridiculous. I&#039;m not sure what my reward was for finishing in 4 other than a jacked up GPA.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;making it through engineering in four years at SUNY Buffalo was difficult&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s no joke. 142 is a number I will never forget. That was the hours required to graduate where I went. That&#8217;s ~18 a semester. Almost none of my AP credits transferred, which was a good thing because the one that did, Calculus ended up screwing me because I wasn&#8217;t ready for Calculus 2. I ended up having to take 21 hours one semester. It was insane. Half the people quit to be education majors, which is kind of a shame. Maybe they should have a BA in engineering. Who knows how many took the 5 year plan. They have substantially reduced the required hours because it was just ridiculous. I&#8217;m not sure what my reward was for finishing in 4 other than a jacked up GPA.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew'</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466355</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew']]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2016 20:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Someone with a more valuable degree may be more likely to leave so they would put the degree to use elsewhere. That would explain some of the disparity. So, their market value is higher. One might also presume that their &quot;net present marginal value&quot; would be higher. 

Btw, is there really this notion of &quot;the same job?&quot; That seems like a very simplistic way of looking at things. Not as bad as &quot;A BA is a BA is a BA is a BS&quot; kind of false equivalency, but still.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone with a more valuable degree may be more likely to leave so they would put the degree to use elsewhere. That would explain some of the disparity. So, their market value is higher. One might also presume that their &#8220;net present marginal value&#8221; would be higher. </p>
<p>Btw, is there really this notion of &#8220;the same job?&#8221; That seems like a very simplistic way of looking at things. Not as bad as &#8220;A BA is a BA is a BA is a BS&#8221; kind of false equivalency, but still.</p>
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		<title>By: JK Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JK Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2016 19:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;*Note: I believe that studies that have looked at this *do* show college-educated workers earning higher salaries, even in the same jobs. &quot;

Either there is a problem with the &quot;same jobs&quot; definition, or those employers are paying above market and therefore might also employ men at higher wages over women for the same job, which is often cited as not likely.  

Of course, this supposes that they do filter out government jobs, especially federal, which do pay based on education even for the same job, e.g., GS-9 for experience, GS-10 for undergraduate, GS-11 for Masters, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;*Note: I believe that studies that have looked at this *do* show college-educated workers earning higher salaries, even in the same jobs. &#8221;</p>
<p>Either there is a problem with the &#8220;same jobs&#8221; definition, or those employers are paying above market and therefore might also employ men at higher wages over women for the same job, which is often cited as not likely.  </p>
<p>Of course, this supposes that they do filter out government jobs, especially federal, which do pay based on education even for the same job, e.g., GS-9 for experience, GS-10 for undergraduate, GS-11 for Masters, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew'</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/question-from-a-commenter-3/#comment-466353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew']]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2016 19:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=7036#comment-466353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Where I used to work they liked ex-military. But it wasn&#039;t a replacement for the requisite engineering degree. So, I wonder if the level of job that military would be a bonus for, it is more of a tie-breaker than a stand-alone.

As a thought experiment level, it seems like military experience would be a real bonus for management. But if you are going into management, that&#039;s a pretty high level.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where I used to work they liked ex-military. But it wasn&#8217;t a replacement for the requisite engineering degree. So, I wonder if the level of job that military would be a bonus for, it is more of a tie-breaker than a stand-alone.</p>
<p>As a thought experiment level, it seems like military experience would be a real bonus for management. But if you are going into management, that&#8217;s a pretty high level.</p>
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