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	<title>Comments on: A Scientist Shunned</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/</link>
	<description>taking the most charitable view of those who disagree</description>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Slocum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 14:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445475</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The leftish version of this episode is that any and all kinds of AGW skepticism at this point (even arguing that sensitivity to CO2 is at the low end of the range which Bengsston has done) is a crackpot position (equivalent to creationism or Holocaust denial) and is quite likely motivated by secret funding from fossil fuel interests.  So, just as evolutionary biologists would naturally refuse to continue collaborating with a colleague who joined a creationist organization, Bengsston was rightly and understandably ostracized.  I think that would pass the ideological Turing test.

This is an interesting (if ugly) process.  Can all &#039;respectable&#039; dissent ultimately be stamped out by making life very visibly miserable for those few remaining scientist skeptics (Curry, Pielke)?  And note that these folks are not even skeptics of global warming in general, but it doesn&#039;t take much heresy.  Pielke, for example, has publicly challenged the idea that extreme weather events are increasing in frequency and severity and is in the midst of a dust-up with Obama presidential science advisor John Holdren:

http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2014/03/john-holdrens-epic-fail.html

When somebody with Hodren&#039;s presumed political influence (especially over federal research monies) goes after a scientist hammer-and-tongs, how much does it really matter if the attack is well or badly founded?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The leftish version of this episode is that any and all kinds of AGW skepticism at this point (even arguing that sensitivity to CO2 is at the low end of the range which Bengsston has done) is a crackpot position (equivalent to creationism or Holocaust denial) and is quite likely motivated by secret funding from fossil fuel interests.  So, just as evolutionary biologists would naturally refuse to continue collaborating with a colleague who joined a creationist organization, Bengsston was rightly and understandably ostracized.  I think that would pass the ideological Turing test.</p>
<p>This is an interesting (if ugly) process.  Can all &#8216;respectable&#8217; dissent ultimately be stamped out by making life very visibly miserable for those few remaining scientist skeptics (Curry, Pielke)?  And note that these folks are not even skeptics of global warming in general, but it doesn&#8217;t take much heresy.  Pielke, for example, has publicly challenged the idea that extreme weather events are increasing in frequency and severity and is in the midst of a dust-up with Obama presidential science advisor John Holdren:</p>
<p><a href="http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2014/03/john-holdrens-epic-fail.html" rel="nofollow">http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2014/03/john-holdrens-epic-fail.html</a></p>
<p>When somebody with Hodren&#8217;s presumed political influence (especially over federal research monies) goes after a scientist hammer-and-tongs, how much does it really matter if the attack is well or badly founded?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg G</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445469</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 11:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[djf

Fair enough for most of what you wrote there.  I didn&#039;t say you were &quot;defending McCarthy&quot; just failing to acknowledge that he tried to violate a lot more people&#039;s rights than he succeeded in violating.

I really must insist that being investigated by Congress for treason, which is a capital crime, is a lot more threatening than not finding the position you want in academia.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>djf</p>
<p>Fair enough for most of what you wrote there.  I didn&#8217;t say you were &#8220;defending McCarthy&#8221; just failing to acknowledge that he tried to violate a lot more people&#8217;s rights than he succeeded in violating.</p>
<p>I really must insist that being investigated by Congress for treason, which is a capital crime, is a lot more threatening than not finding the position you want in academia.</p>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 03:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t where you got the idea I was defending McCarthy.  I certainly never suggested that he protected anyone&#039;s rights.  But he was not the cause of anyone going to jail.  Other than George Marshall, there were not many specific individuals McCarthy accused of treason.  I don&#039;t think the names on the list McCarthy brandished were publicized.  Again, what went on in the 40s and 50s was that people with certain opinions (in my opinion, morally despicable opinions) had trouble obtaining and keeping employment in their fields.

This is exactly what is starting to happen to people who hold certain non-P.C. opinions. If you&#039;re on the right (as I am), you learn to keep your mouth shut about your opinions at work.  In my office, at least, Leftists feel no such reticence; a friend of mine, I&#039;m sorry to say, keeps a poster of Che on display in her office (a government office, btw); nobody objects.

I have no idea if they have Keynesians on the faculty at GMU; I was asking you.  I assume you&#039;re not suggesting that Keynesians have more trouble than free-marketeers finding positions in academic economics in the US.

I was not suggesting that you are a Stalinist sympathizer.  I do, however, find it puzzling and troubling how much lamentation still comes from some sectors of the Left (not you personally) over the &quot;plight&quot; of actual Stalinist sympathizers of the 40s and 50s (when Stalin was in still in business) who lost jobs as a result of their pro-Stalin views.  I don&#039;t think any sensible person would feel sympathy for someone who lost his job (at least in the private sector) because he wrote a letter to the newspaper denying the Holocaust or led Klan rallies on weekends.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t where you got the idea I was defending McCarthy.  I certainly never suggested that he protected anyone&#8217;s rights.  But he was not the cause of anyone going to jail.  Other than George Marshall, there were not many specific individuals McCarthy accused of treason.  I don&#8217;t think the names on the list McCarthy brandished were publicized.  Again, what went on in the 40s and 50s was that people with certain opinions (in my opinion, morally despicable opinions) had trouble obtaining and keeping employment in their fields.</p>
<p>This is exactly what is starting to happen to people who hold certain non-P.C. opinions. If you&#8217;re on the right (as I am), you learn to keep your mouth shut about your opinions at work.  In my office, at least, Leftists feel no such reticence; a friend of mine, I&#8217;m sorry to say, keeps a poster of Che on display in her office (a government office, btw); nobody objects.</p>
<p>I have no idea if they have Keynesians on the faculty at GMU; I was asking you.  I assume you&#8217;re not suggesting that Keynesians have more trouble than free-marketeers finding positions in academic economics in the US.</p>
<p>I was not suggesting that you are a Stalinist sympathizer.  I do, however, find it puzzling and troubling how much lamentation still comes from some sectors of the Left (not you personally) over the &#8220;plight&#8221; of actual Stalinist sympathizers of the 40s and 50s (when Stalin was in still in business) who lost jobs as a result of their pro-Stalin views.  I don&#8217;t think any sensible person would feel sympathy for someone who lost his job (at least in the private sector) because he wrote a letter to the newspaper denying the Holocaust or led Klan rallies on weekends.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg G</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 02:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[djf

Accusing someone of committing treason is a lot different from accusing them of believing in the wrong scientific theory.

McCarthyism was called McCarthyism because of, well...McCarthy himself.   And it was despite McCarthy&#039;s efforts, not because of them, that many people&#039;s rights were protected.

As the official spokesman for &quot;the &quot; Left and my fellow Stalinist sympathizers can I ask you one thing?   Do they really have Keynesian economists at GMU?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>djf</p>
<p>Accusing someone of committing treason is a lot different from accusing them of believing in the wrong scientific theory.</p>
<p>McCarthyism was called McCarthyism because of, well&#8230;McCarthy himself.   And it was despite McCarthy&#8217;s efforts, not because of them, that many people&#8217;s rights were protected.</p>
<p>As the official spokesman for &#8220;the &#8221; Left and my fellow Stalinist sympathizers can I ask you one thing?   Do they really have Keynesian economists at GMU?</p>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[djf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 23:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to Greg G, McCarthyism wasn&#039;t really McCarthyism either - although McCarthy waved around a list of supposed spies, and stupidly accused Gen. Marshall of being a Soviet stooge, the people who went to jail were people who were duly convicted of crimes such as spying for the Soviets (perhaps the contemporary Left doesn&#039;t think that&#039;s as bad as spying for Israel) or, as in the case of Hiss, perjury about spying.  If anyone went to jail during the McCarthy era just for advocating Communist principles in the abstract, or rhetorically supporting the Soviet Union, I&#039;d be interested to learn of it.

The main effect of what we call &quot;McCarthyism&quot; (of which McCarthy was only one proponent, another being Harry Truman) was that people who had been members of the Communist Party or had publicly advocated Communist principles and support for Soviet Communism (as opposed to cooperating with the Soviets in the war) had trouble finding jobs in government, media, entertainment, business and the professions for a number of years.  This seems remarkably similar to the consequences that people opposing the Left on a number of hot-button issues (Islamism, immigration, racial issues, climate change, heritability of intelligence)  are beginning to face.  It seems that the Left today believes that supporting Stalin in the 40s and 50s was not as bad as taking non-P.C. positions on today&#039;s hot-button issues, since they persist in paying homage to the &quot;victims&quot; of McCarthyism while they seek to visit equivalent penalties on the Left&#039;s present-day opponents.

Incidentally, if you know of any universities with a free-market orientation (assuming any exist these days) that do not have Keynsian or further-left economists on their faculties, that would be interesting to hear about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Greg G, McCarthyism wasn&#8217;t really McCarthyism either &#8211; although McCarthy waved around a list of supposed spies, and stupidly accused Gen. Marshall of being a Soviet stooge, the people who went to jail were people who were duly convicted of crimes such as spying for the Soviets (perhaps the contemporary Left doesn&#8217;t think that&#8217;s as bad as spying for Israel) or, as in the case of Hiss, perjury about spying.  If anyone went to jail during the McCarthy era just for advocating Communist principles in the abstract, or rhetorically supporting the Soviet Union, I&#8217;d be interested to learn of it.</p>
<p>The main effect of what we call &#8220;McCarthyism&#8221; (of which McCarthy was only one proponent, another being Harry Truman) was that people who had been members of the Communist Party or had publicly advocated Communist principles and support for Soviet Communism (as opposed to cooperating with the Soviets in the war) had trouble finding jobs in government, media, entertainment, business and the professions for a number of years.  This seems remarkably similar to the consequences that people opposing the Left on a number of hot-button issues (Islamism, immigration, racial issues, climate change, heritability of intelligence)  are beginning to face.  It seems that the Left today believes that supporting Stalin in the 40s and 50s was not as bad as taking non-P.C. positions on today&#8217;s hot-button issues, since they persist in paying homage to the &#8220;victims&#8221; of McCarthyism while they seek to visit equivalent penalties on the Left&#8217;s present-day opponents.</p>
<p>Incidentally, if you know of any universities with a free-market orientation (assuming any exist these days) that do not have Keynsian or further-left economists on their faculties, that would be interesting to hear about.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg G</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 13:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, this is what you would expect it to look like.  Regardless of the college or the issue people of all points of view tend to want to collaborate with and support others with similar views.

And so left wing economists do not advance or find support at universities known for a free market orientation.   Believers in evolution  do not advance or find support at religious schools that teach creationism.   Same as it ever was.   

In science as in other fields human nature prevails.   But there are big rewards in science if you can produce new evidence that upsets the prevailing paradigm.

It would indeed be better if everyone was more open minded but they are not and they never have been.    Calling this McCarthyism is wild hyperbole.   McCarthy was accusing people of treason which is orders of magnitude more threatening than anything that has been alleged here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is what you would expect it to look like.  Regardless of the college or the issue people of all points of view tend to want to collaborate with and support others with similar views.</p>
<p>And so left wing economists do not advance or find support at universities known for a free market orientation.   Believers in evolution  do not advance or find support at religious schools that teach creationism.   Same as it ever was.   </p>
<p>In science as in other fields human nature prevails.   But there are big rewards in science if you can produce new evidence that upsets the prevailing paradigm.</p>
<p>It would indeed be better if everyone was more open minded but they are not and they never have been.    Calling this McCarthyism is wild hyperbole.   McCarthy was accusing people of treason which is orders of magnitude more threatening than anything that has been alleged here.</p>
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		<title>By: Handle</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Handle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 11:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://judithcurry.com/2014/05/16/reflections-on-bengtsson-and-the-gwpf/#more-15497&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Have you no sense of decency, sir?&lt;/a&gt; At long last, have you left no sense of decency?&lt;blockquote&gt;So what is the impact on a scientist of the so-called climate McCarthyism?  As a result of smearings by Romm, Mann, et al., I am excluded from serious consideration for administrative positions at universities, offices in professional societies, consideration for awards from professional societies, a number of people won’t collaborate with me, and anyone who wants to invite me to be a keynote speaker has to justify this in light of all the cr*p that shows up if you google ‘Judith Curry’.  Does any of this really ‘matter’?  I’ve convinced myself that it doesn’t (well not as much as my own conscience and integrity), but I suspect that such things would matter to most scientists.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s academia, in a subject that relies on retaining favor with a limited number of peer for positions, prestige, and grants; what did you expect it to look like?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://judithcurry.com/2014/05/16/reflections-on-bengtsson-and-the-gwpf/#more-15497" rel="nofollow">Have you no sense of decency, sir?</a> At long last, have you left no sense of decency?<br />
<blockquote>So what is the impact on a scientist of the so-called climate McCarthyism?  As a result of smearings by Romm, Mann, et al., I am excluded from serious consideration for administrative positions at universities, offices in professional societies, consideration for awards from professional societies, a number of people won’t collaborate with me, and anyone who wants to invite me to be a keynote speaker has to justify this in light of all the cr*p that shows up if you google ‘Judith Curry’.  Does any of this really ‘matter’?  I’ve convinced myself that it doesn’t (well not as much as my own conscience and integrity), but I suspect that such things would matter to most scientists.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s academia, in a subject that relies on retaining favor with a limited number of peer for positions, prestige, and grants; what did you expect it to look like?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg G</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 10:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are not nearly enough specifics provided here or in the link to evaluate the claims made by the climate skeptic in question here.

The withdrawal of &quot;support&quot; and &quot;joint authorship&quot; do not add up to McCarthyism in my view.  Perhaps more information on the &quot;etc.&quot; would have been more impressive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are not nearly enough specifics provided here or in the link to evaluate the claims made by the climate skeptic in question here.</p>
<p>The withdrawal of &#8220;support&#8221; and &#8220;joint authorship&#8221; do not add up to McCarthyism in my view.  Perhaps more information on the &#8220;etc.&#8221; would have been more impressive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: andrew'</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445375</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew']]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 09:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is hard to prove as one of the features of academia is to shun scientists.  Hard to prove, but I think we know.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is hard to prove as one of the features of academia is to shun scientists.  Hard to prove, but I think we know.</p>
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		<title>By: MG</title>
		<link>http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/a-scientist-shunned/#comment-445341</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2014 19:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/?p=3317#comment-445341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All you need to do is read the comments on Tyler&#039;s post to feel that the Left is not inclined to take a sane view, let alone a charitable view, of those with whom they disagree.  Even amidst the moderating influence of a centrist MR platform, a great number of (I must assume progressive) readers seemed unfazed by these deveopments.  As far as they are concerned, it&#039;s the speakers&#039; fault for being so &quot;extreme&quot;, it&#039;s the agitators&#039; right to disrupt events, and (back to ) it&#039;s the speakers&#039; fault for bailing out under pressure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you need to do is read the comments on Tyler&#8217;s post to feel that the Left is not inclined to take a sane view, let alone a charitable view, of those with whom they disagree.  Even amidst the moderating influence of a centrist MR platform, a great number of (I must assume progressive) readers seemed unfazed by these deveopments.  As far as they are concerned, it&#8217;s the speakers&#8217; fault for being so &#8220;extreme&#8221;, it&#8217;s the agitators&#8217; right to disrupt events, and (back to ) it&#8217;s the speakers&#8217; fault for bailing out under pressure.</p>
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